The discussion started because someone complained about a child sat a table near them who was watching a portable DVD player at dinner. Now then, to an extent I agree that it was discourteous to other diners and irresponsible to allow the child to have their cartoon on loud enough that it was disturbing other guests. I would have been a bit miffed myself if I'm honest. That's where headphones come in. What harm is it doing to other guests if the child was watching their DVD with headphones so as not to disturb those nearby? Some children like to colour in at the table (like Amy), some like to play on their gadgets (this is the 21st century, get over it), and some just like to sit quietly with their family. Each to their own. When we've been out for a meal, which isn't often, Amy usually takes her Nintendo 3DS and has the sound turned off. This is to keep her occupied. Yes, she is 12. Yes, she probably shouldn't need to have something to occupy her anymore, but she does. I don't think her autism is mainly to blame, it's just the way she is. I would much rather have her occupied and quiet than be causing a nuisance and disturbing other guests. Comments were made that children shouldn't need gadgets and DVD players at the table and should be made to enjoy family time. Well I'm sorry, but even though I know that would be an ideal world, no one has a right to judge someone else's child or how they have been brought up.
So while I can see both sides to the whinging that took place on that particular thread, I did point out that I would not be dictated to by someone who's opinion was that children should be seen and not heard at a dinner table. I respect others as I would wish to be respected in return. I wouldn't allow Amy to disturb other guests and I will ensure that she behaves impeccably whilst at the dinner table. But she's a child. Children are unpredictable. Children with autism are even more unpredictable. Live and let live; I do wish people could adapt this attitude, especially when they're on holiday. Some of us, like me, will have spent a year saving up for a luxury two weeks in the sun at a five star All Inclusive resort. No one's spoiling my fun, and they're certainly not going to spoil Amy's.
That used to be the norm, didn't it? To be seen & not heard.
ReplyDeleteI think children should be allowed to be children and that most people accept them and delight in them for what they are.
Hoping that you and Amy have a lovely time.
Maggie X
Nuts in May
It certainly did, Maggie. Even I remember when I was little and we would visit my parents' friend's house, where we had to sit quietly for an hour. Not sure how we did it but we did!
DeleteI was having a similar discussion the other day after the children made a lot of noise in our own back garden. My OH wanted them to be quiet, but they were having fun and sure they were loud, but it was the afternoon, our neighbours who work shifts were up and so wouldn't be disturbed and it is their home!
ReplyDeleteIf you want children to be seen and not heard then a family resort (or an estate where mostly families live) isn't for you.
On the other hand, when our neighbours are asleep I always make sure that my two are quiet (it's nice manners) and when we are at a restaurant we try to keep to ourselves as a family, but there are times when that isn't possible. Children don't have a volume control after all!
I know you'll have a fab time and sod those who think you are doing it wrong!
Totally, it's a case of balance isn't it. It was just a few people on the group who felt it okay to point out that children shouldn't use gadgets at all, which does annoy me when we live in the age of technology!
DeleteI completely agree with you. People are very intolerant of children and I used to worry if we were in a restaurant and they were being noisy or disruptive, but I am a lot more relaxed about it now. Children should be children and as long as they are not being deliberately rude then they should be allowed to make noise. Like you say there are plenty of places where you can go that are not likely to have children and if people find it offensive, they should go there instead.
ReplyDeleteChildren grow up so quickly, we should let them be children as long as possible!
Definitely. I wouldn't take Amy to a resort that was mainly for adults or people who wanted a quieter holiday, so why do those types of people go to family resorts? Seems very strange to me!
DeleteThere are times and places for appropriate behaviour and you can't excuse bad manners, rudeness and bad behaviour with 'they are children' no matter where abouts you are. So the problem is who defines what is appropriate or not ... And there starts the debate. I have no issue with nintendos at a hotel dinner table. Someone needs to walk a mile in the 'we just need our own headspace after a week together non stop' moccasins to understand that one. Screeching and screaming around the pool....probably ok unless it is becoming totally irritating to all others there. Running in restaurants...no...it's just dangerous. Shouting in hotel corridors...no...it's discourteous to other guests. These are my opinion. I don't care whether it is a family resort or not some people don't seem to be teaching their children proper behaviour and to be honest, I think on a family is a great opportunity to do so because as a family you have concentrated time together to work on it. Appropriate behaviour does not mean no fun, or been seen and not heard it means following social ettiquette that even children need to learn to become a functioning part of society.
ReplyDeleteAnything that is going to cause a nuisance is discourteous to other guests and parents should have the common sense to realise where that line lies. But unfortunately, many parents don't and they do let their children run wild where it isn't appropriate. These are the parents who spoil it for the rest of us. Why should all children be classed as noisy like they seemed to be in this instance, when we know that isn't the case? Some parents try really hard to integrate their children into society, as I do myself (often in vain) but when you get a few whingers who don't appreciate the fact that children can be unpredictable, there lies the problem.
DeleteI agree with you. A family resort is just that.... a *family* resort. I wish that my Nick could sit at a table quietly, however, because of his autism he gets extremely stressed, therefore having an iPad there to help him (and it is a bit noisy, although I try to keep the sound low!)is a must for us.
ReplyDeleteI do think this opens a new can of worms where special needs children are concerned, because very often when out in public we come across ignorant folk who just won't accept disability, expecting all children to behave the same. In the real world that doesn't happen.
Deletei dont understand the seen and not heard...it goes against the very nature of children...and it is all about our convenience and not theirs....
ReplyDeleteIt certainly does, Brian, and it can cause all sorts of problems for a child's confidence in later life. Children brought up like this usually end up as shy adults.
DeleteTrust me when I take my 6 on holiday you hear them before you see them. They are very well behaved and have great manners but they are children and they are excited and after all its their holiday too. Mind you it would be great for 10 mins peace if nothing else.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely, we should always remember that this is the children's holiday also, not to mention the whole reason we chose a family resort is for the children!!
DeleteIf parents allow kids to run wild that's one thing. They should control them or carry them outside! Gadgets? I don't have a problem with either...Just have fun and don't worry about "looking down the nose" types of people...
ReplyDeletehughugs
I don't think in this day and age we should have a problem with gadgets. It's a sign of progress and the fact we're now living in the age of technology. If people won't accept that then they shouldn't make others who do accept it feel guilty or miserable.
DeleteI dont get it either -First its a family resort, kids are kids and as long as they are not running around and in your physical space - why get so uptight ?
ReplyDeleteWhy indeed?! I have no idea what all the fuss was about but it only took one person to mention his annoyance at children at the dinner table to make others join in, leaving one person say how she doesn't approve of children having gadgets at all, including TV's. I mean, purleese!!! 1950's?!!
DeleteI'm agree entirely with Kelloggsville's comment.
ReplyDeleteI think it's all about good manners and being curteous to others. And that goes for adults as well as children!!
I agree with you both. There is a line to draw and parents should be responsible enough to realise where that line is. It wouldn't surprise me that guests complain if children are running wild or causing a disturbance, but equally, I would complain if adults were doing the same. It works both ways.
DeleteWhy go to a family resort if you don't like children? Sometimes they make a noise, act inappropriately, and generally act their age. So of course gadgets at the table, if it helps keep them at the table and quietish, are fine.
ReplyDeleteAre these same adults checking text messages and counting their 140 characters for twitter?
Haha, you have a very good point, Jo. I am sure we are talking about the same people - always on their iPads, texting, tweeting, when they should be relaxing on holiday. I mean, heaven forbid they can't get an internet connection!!!!
DeleteThe important thing is for children to be part of family occasions, whatever they are. Adult conversation can be boring (and not just to children). We were all children once, it is a pity that some folk forget it. I love to hear children laughing and chattering and if parents find the need for gadgets, colouring books to help keep the peace sometimes, so be it.
ReplyDeleteTotally Anne, many people conveniently forget they were once children. There is always something to keep a child occupied I'm sure.
DeleteI was brought up in total compliance with see not heard. This was early 1930s and it was the same for all children. I don't think it did any harm then but dubious now when so few subject to that stricture. Made us think before we spoke
ReplyDeleteWith respect, John, times have changed considerably and we have to change with them. Children these days, like it or not, aren't taught the same morals and it is more common for children to be a part of the conversation rather than sat in a corner and not be heard. I do think many children are brought up to think before they speak but I am always sure, even in the 30's, that there were some children who weren't.
DeleteActually although I can join with the best of them where whinging is concerned and especially on the subject of noisy children, I do agree that when on holiday especially if staying at a family camp, a little bit of give is called for. Children are on holiday to 'let themselves go' in the same vein that many of us adults have a holiday to relax, forget all the usual everyday constraints' etc.
ReplyDeleteIts the constant screaming, crying and wailing in the supermarket that tends to rile this Gran up....
Me too, I love a good whinge! It's an upmarket 5 star resort but it is classed as a family resort and there's the clue to what it will be like. I guess if you want to be quiet and don't want to be near kids, then it's not going to be the place for you, but like I said, if you do decide to go anyway then I think it's wrong to moan about children nearby.
DeleteAdults are just as guilty of being noisy and selfish as children, especially when they are young and especially when they are on holiday. If it is a family resort then adults should expect to see children being children, but even when on holiday people should try and be considerate of others as far as possible. I've never been on a 'normal' holiday with my special needs kids, but I do know that we are not welcome in the local Church because even with consoles, chocolate buttons, drinks and music, I cannot guarantee to keep them quiet and still for the whole Mass, so I am sure that we would annoy people in a holiday resort...
ReplyDeleteIt's only recently that I've been able to take Amy places. We've usually done Center Parcs in Cumbria and spent a few years going to Ribby Hall near Lytham St. Annes. These were places that were completely child-friendly, even for an autistic child, Center Parcs in particular is excellent, the staff are second to none with special needs kids. But I wanted to try somewhere different. I know Amy's capable now of being elsewhere so I booked it. By the time we go she'll be 13 and a half but I can't promise she'll be quiet!
DeleteGood blog post. I think if people don't want to be around children on holiday then its up to them to ensure they book a holiday that's completely child free. Personally, I've no problem with children making noise; after all its their holiday too.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Shirley. I was aware when writing this post that some people who might not have children would still wish to go to a family resort like they do in the case of this one. But for me personally, I wouldn't pick a family resort out of a brochure that shows tons of pictures of slides and children's areas if I wanted peace and quiet. Just doesn't make sense to me!
DeleteIt all boils down to whether or not someones behavior negatively affects others around them I guess. If you (not you specifically) having fun spoils it for others, then it's not fair.
ReplyDeleteYou are right to say that people shouldn't expect a peaceful resort if it's family orientated. You need to manage your expectations. Before we had a family our holiday destinations were based on how far from other people we could get. Now, we want to go places where there's fun things for kids to do - and that means other kids :)
As for the DVD player at the table - that would have pissed me off royally. It's just rude. As you said, headphones would have solved the issue for everyone. In fairness I would have hoped the staff would have asked the family to either not use the DVD player or asked them to use headphones.
And as someone else said - adults can be very inconsiderate and can be more problematic than kids!
I know what you mean about the DVD player. I wouldn't have been happy about it either and that's why I mentioned headphones. I'd insist on my daughter using them as courtesy to other guests. Then someone said they didn't agree with children having gadgets full stop, like DS's, tv's, DVD players etc and that really did annoy me - no one has a right to dictate what someone else's child can and can't have except that child's parents/carers.
DeleteI can't understand people going to a family resort if they don't want to be disturbed by children. We have five grandchildren and love them dearly but when we go away on holiday we choose adult only venues for peace and quiet. Makes sense.
ReplyDeleteIt does make sense, perfect sense. If I was going on holiday without Amy I would personally choose an adult's only place or perhaps a Spa hotel. I think some people just like to moan!
DeleteI'm kind of on the same lines as everyone else. My OH & I have managed to go away 3 or 4 times for a night without the children and when we do that we choose to go to somewhere that is advertised for couples rather than families. However with the children we go to family friendly places, although not always advertised as specifically aimed at the family market. I expect my children to behave in terms of not running about in a restaurant etc and being considerate of others, but equally they are there to have fun, so if they make a noise and splash in the pool, then they should be allowed. they're kids and they're on holiday. Equally, with gadgets at the table. We do now allow my Son to have an Ipod or something at the table while we're out on holiday with headphones, because it gives him something to escape with when he gets tired of concentrating on small talk and it also gives him a means of blocking out sounds he doesn't like. I think that's entirely up to each family as long as it's not disturbing other people. None of us know the particulr needs of another family so why should we care if its not interfering with us? Sometimes people do over-step the mark, but that is just as likely with adults as it is with children in my experience. I hope you have a lovely holiday :)
ReplyDeleteThank you :) You've hit the nail on the head here when you say none of us know the particular needs of another family, and that's what got my back up about the thread. People were starting to get too opinionated and judging others when they knew nothing about that family's circumstances.
DeleteI take my 3DS everywhere and I'm 28, so screw these people haha.
ReplyDeleteI find 'children should be seen and not heard' an incredibly offensive term, especially when it's used by people who genuinely believe it. That they have more rights than a child and a child should never talk. It's just not right.
I agree with you, it is offensive. I think many years ago people were simply used to this attitude but these days it feels very wrong to assume children should be kept quiet when out in public as though they are inferior.
DeletePersonally I think it depends on the time and the place and how noisy the children are. Seeing children being left to run wild in a public place is very distracting to other people and I really think if children are that out of control they are best taken out of that environment. Special needs or not, if my son was to behave hyperactively I would either leave early or not go at all. However to expect children to be silent is unreasonable as well. Adults aren't so why should we expect children to be so quiet.
ReplyDeleteAs for gadgets, I think they are acceptable as long as the noise isn't such that it disturbs other people. For me, I found gadgets such as DSs etc a very useful tool to help my children to learn how to manage these social environments. Without them we would never have had many family meals out and my children, particularly my son, would never have learnt how to behave. Deb
Everyone has their limits. For me, I am far more tolerant of children as a grandparent than I was as a parent. I had only one child but often worried about the affect of her behavior on other people. As a grandparent, I willingly oblige the noise and gadgets because they are, after all, children. I am accustomed to daily quiet without any fuss and bother. When the grandchildren visit, it is a whirlwind of activity, noise, laughter, and excitement. I cherish the noisy times because it means they are enjoying themselves. People need to lighten up and accept that children will be noisy. So long as they aren't rude or bothersome, let them be. It's a nice reminder of how we were once carefree and fun.
ReplyDelete